Dry Dock Models

I have done a lot of research on HMS Guerriere (late French La Guerriere).
Since there are no surviving plans of this ship in either the Musee de la Marine or the NMM, I am contemplating drawing a plan using all available sources of information. Some think that a speculative plan should not be drawn. I would like to hear from others regarding their opinion in this matter.

Regards,
Bob Read

Personally I have no problem with it, if you can draw them in a way that you feel is an accurate representation of your research and get them look right, no one who hasn't done the research could argue with you on it's accuracy now could they??

Jmeador

Bob:
I'll give you the historian's take on the question. From a perspective of historical accuracy, a plan for the HMS Guerriere can not be drawn because, as you point out, no contemporary authentic plan for that vessel has surfaced. Its the same with the Continental naval ships like Lexington, Cabot, Hannah etc, or like the Bon Homme Richard. Reconstructions of all those vessels have been undertaken at one time or another producing more or less well researched plans and models that more or less resemble those vessels.

You could very legitimatly produce a plan of a vessel of the same size and general class as Guerriere using the source material relating to Guerriere uncovered in your research to augment the plan to closely resemble her.

From a historical perspective, the key thing is to make sure and let folks know exactly what you are presenting. If its a ship that closely resembles Guerriere, that's fine. Where you would take a hit is if you produced a plan that you say is Guerrriere when its really not.

I personally applaud the effort.

Russ

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your input. After having researched several ships in different eras with the intent to draw plans for making a model, it has always come down to this question:
How many unknowns are in the plan? When researching the ships of antiquity, one runs out of the true "knowns" and into speculation usually very early. Take a ship like the USS Constitution for instance. One would think that with a ship still in existence we should have no problem creating a plan of the ship as originally launched. Very quickly you find that there were two draughts of the ship which are not identical. You can do some detective work to speculate which draught was actually used but you are still speculating. Then, as
with all ships whose original draughts survive we encounter the problem of "as built".
Sometimes significant changes were made while a ship was on the ways which were never noted. Then you get to rigging which was very much at the captain's discretion. Then, we have the problem of ongoing changes which were made to the vessel during her career.

I guess my opinion is that if we have at least some basic dimensions and some contemporary information about the ship and her contemporary classmates, we can attempt a reconstruction. As was mentioned, the highest requirement one has when attempting such an exercise is to provide full disclosure of sources of information and to outline roughly what percentage
is speculative. If we become paralyzed by the lack of complete information, no plan or model will ever be attempted. I believe this is called letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Lest anyone think that the problems get solved by researching a modern ship, think again. For the past few years I and a group of guys on the web have worked to discover and document the actual structure and appearance of RMS Titanic. Here is a ship of the twentieth century with two sister ships. Some plans of the ship survive but many do not. Add to that the fact that many changes were made during building and not documented.
I'm saying all this to make the point that in terms of documentation more modern is not always better.

I guess I will attempt a HMS Guerriere plan at some point. I still have some research to do but when produced I will provide full disclosure about the plan.

Regards,
Bob Read

How much is known about HMS Guerriere? and how much is known for certain? Length, breadth, displacement, araments, compliment, etc? Are there any contemporary paintings? Any logs? Anything more than just its name? I'm not looking for an encyclopedia, but just a general survey.

Bob:
I think if you can come up with a plan that come close in dimensions and general outboard appearance and then fill in with what you found in your research, you can call it a ship closely resembling Guerriere and that will work.

As an aside (and not meaning to change the subject), it is well settled that the design and moulds for Constitution came from Humphreys' design and not Fox's. No need to muddle that situation. I have researched Constitution's design, construction, and original appearance for several years and much of what has been written is in error. The best secondary source for information is Tyrone Martin's book "A Most Fortunate Ship." He has done nearly 30 years of research on the Constitution.

The problem with trying to discern Constitution's original appearance is not in hull design, but rather in determining her outboard appearance, deck layout, masting and rigging etc. As you pointed out, much of that was subject to the whims of the dockyard and the captain and few records remain of what changes were made in those areas. Fortunately for us, we have the original ship and her hull has been measured on several ocassions over the years and the hull form matches very well with Humphreys' original plan.

Russ

Hi Bob,
HMS guerriere was, I think, a 38-gun frigate.
What do we have as 38-gun frigate models (French captured ones)? :
- HMS Ajax by Euro models
http://www.westbourne-model.co.uk/images/EuroModel/Ajax.jpg- HMS Diana by Caldercraft
http://www.jotika-ltd.com/Pages/1024768/Nelson_Front.htm
Books?
Frigates in the French Navy 1650-1850 by Jean Boudriot
http://www.ancre.fr/vaisso18-e.htm
More to come if I get more informations.
Michel.

Hello Bob,
I have no relevent info on this ship, but I can say your past work on other sites (TRMA) will be a welcome addition here

Gentlemen:
Since you have touched on a number of subjects, I will put the separate replies in this post.

To Rpetrick:
The principal dimensions (length between perpendiculars, breadth, and depth
of hold are known. The type of frigate is known (large "38"). The armament is known in considerable detail. Jean Boudriot's book on the French frigates in general and La Venus in particular gives a lot of information about close contemporaries. There is a history of the Royal Navy which adds a lot of detail.
There are some contemporary paintings of the battle with Constitution but I don't think they are terribly reliable for Guerriere. There are other written references that add details here and there.

To Russ:
I have done research on USS Constitution and one of the best I have found which discusses the differences between the draughts is "Old Ironsides: The Rise, Decline, and Resurrection of the USS Constitution" by Thomas C. Gillmer.
I used the existence of the two draughts to point out some of the difficulties in
determining the original structure. There are other aspects of her "as built" appearance that historians really had to wrestle with. The bows, figurehead, and stern were three areas where evidence was fairly thin.

To Olyclassrich:
Thanks for the compliments. Do I know you by another name?

Regards,
Bob Read

Bob-

First off, I think I’ve seen some of those paintings of Constitution vs Guerriere, but they’ve always struck me as romantic depictions of the first victory of an American vessel, and therefore historical technical details may be lacking.

What exactly is your task, and how far have you gone? You’ve obviously done considerable research, but are you at the point of putting ink to paper? Given what is known about the ship, and what is known about activity in French shipyards at the time, can you produce plans that are close enough to the reality to draw other experts into the discussion? If you’re wrong, the experts will not be shy with comments, and if you are wrong then I guess the comments will be deserved. But if there is not enough information to contradict your plans, who can say that you’re wrong? Are we to wait and do nothing until a complete set of plans and specifications fall out of a drawer from some musty old cabinet? Somebody has to get the ball rolling and put something on the table. I can see a day 10 years or 20 years or a hundred years in the future when moviemakers use the ‘Bob Read’ plans to construct a replica and re-enact the battle while historians stand around scratching themselves and grumbling about one thing or another.

Robert